1 00:00:14,970 --> 00:00:12,350 on this episode of skeptic oh I think 2 00:00:16,710 --> 00:00:14,980 this is kind of weird to you maybe but I 3 00:00:19,140 --> 00:00:16,720 think some of us are permitted to and 4 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:19,150 some of us it's not part of the plan for 5 00:00:22,260 --> 00:00:20,770 a life it's like it gets in the way of 6 00:00:23,970 --> 00:00:22,270 other things for trying to accomplish 7 00:00:25,679 --> 00:00:23,980 with their life and so it's like that 8 00:00:27,570 --> 00:00:25,689 kind of thing is blocked off it's 9 00:00:30,179 --> 00:00:27,580 strangely enough I think that for 10 00:00:32,549 --> 00:00:30,189 instance in the skeptic believer debate 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:32,559 that you have on psychic things I do 12 00:00:37,410 --> 00:00:35,050 feel like some people are really meant 13 00:00:40,439 --> 00:00:37,420 to remain skeptical because if they 14 00:00:41,670 --> 00:00:40,449 don't then it affects how they go 15 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:41,680 through their life and things that 16 00:00:45,270 --> 00:00:42,940 they're supposed to learn from it 17 00:00:49,109 --> 00:00:45,280 see but Andy that's the kind of almost 18 00:00:52,530 --> 00:00:49,119 new agey kind of stuff that drives folks 19 00:00:56,039 --> 00:00:52,540 nuts but here's what's so cool about you 20 00:01:10,870 --> 00:00:56,049 is that you went ahead and did the 21 00:01:14,810 --> 00:01:13,249 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 22 00:01:17,389 --> 00:01:14,820 controversial science with leading 23 00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:17,399 researchers thinkers and their critics 24 00:01:22,609 --> 00:01:19,590 I'm your host Alex Karras and on this 25 00:01:25,490 --> 00:01:22,619 episode we talk about what's going on 26 00:01:28,190 --> 00:01:25,500 with your dreams you know it's kind of 27 00:01:30,590 --> 00:01:28,200 funny when we think that probably just 28 00:01:33,350 --> 00:01:30,600 twenty years ago it was still widely 29 00:01:37,010 --> 00:01:33,360 assumed that dreams were nothing more 30 00:01:38,980 --> 00:01:37,020 than random firing of your brain and 31 00:01:41,570 --> 00:01:38,990 while people who are hardcore 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:41,580 materialist would still have some kind 33 00:01:46,639 --> 00:01:44,090 of version of that today I think modern 34 00:01:49,669 --> 00:01:46,649 psychology and even some parts of 35 00:01:52,430 --> 00:01:49,679 neurology are starting to recognize that 36 00:01:54,710 --> 00:01:52,440 there might be more to these dreams than 37 00:01:56,899 --> 00:01:54,720 they initially thought and anyone who 38 00:02:00,020 --> 00:01:56,909 doesn't think so would certainly want to 39 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:00,030 give a read and give a listen to today's 40 00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:02,250 guest dr. Andy Paquette I should say 41 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:04,560 soon-to-be dr. Andy Paquette I don't 42 00:02:10,180 --> 00:02:06,450 think he's quite finished that PhD yet 43 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:10,190 but Andy has a long history of having 44 00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:12,930 precognitive dreams at his dreams where 45 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:15,030 he sees something that's going to happen 46 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:18,450 before it happened as remarkable as that 47 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:20,850 is what's probably even more remarkable 48 00:02:26,390 --> 00:02:23,970 is that he has rigorously recorded all 49 00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:26,400 these dreams and then gone about the 50 00:02:31,190 --> 00:02:28,590 process of verifying and validating 51 00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:31,200 whether or not those dreams are true and 52 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:33,329 if you want to know how he did that you 53 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:35,850 can of course read his book dreamer you 54 00:02:40,819 --> 00:02:38,609 can listen to his past interview here on 55 00:02:42,650 --> 00:02:40,829 skeptic Oh or you can listen to this one 56 00:02:43,849 --> 00:02:42,660 because I think he covers it as well you 57 00:02:45,170 --> 00:02:43,859 know one of the points that he talks 58 00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:45,180 about in this interview that I found 59 00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:48,329 interesting is that it wasn't until he 60 00:02:54,710 --> 00:02:51,590 was collaborating with world-renowned 61 00:02:57,259 --> 00:02:54,720 psychologist and dream expert dr. 62 00:03:00,620 --> 00:02:57,269 Stanley crypt nur that Andy realized 63 00:03:04,789 --> 00:03:00,630 that he in this process had compiled the 64 00:03:07,670 --> 00:03:04,799 largest dream journal in history not 65 00:03:09,530 --> 00:03:07,680 just currently in history krypter who's 66 00:03:11,539 --> 00:03:09,540 again one of the top people in this 67 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:11,549 field told them I've never come across 68 00:03:17,420 --> 00:03:14,970 anyone in all my research that ever has 69 00:03:19,490 --> 00:03:17,430 compiled a dream journal that is this 70 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:19,500 extensive so it's really quite a 71 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:21,580 remarkable body of Dada 72 00:03:25,290 --> 00:03:23,410 that he's put together so in this 73 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:25,300 interview we talked all about that we 74 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:27,850 talked about these death dreams that are 75 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:30,370 the subject of his most recent paper and 76 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:32,500 they're fascinating and then we also 77 00:03:38,130 --> 00:03:35,050 talked about how hard it is to get a 78 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:38,140 paper like this published so it was 79 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:40,930 great having Andy back on skeptic oh I 80 00:03:44,670 --> 00:03:43,150 hope you enjoy this show one other thing 81 00:03:46,890 --> 00:03:44,680 before we jump into the interview you 82 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:46,900 know I just had an interview with dr. 83 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:48,790 Julie by shal and I'm gonna get that 84 00:03:51,810 --> 00:03:50,470 interview out in a few weeks but one 85 00:03:53,850 --> 00:03:51,820 thing she mentioned that I wanted to 86 00:03:55,710 --> 00:03:53,860 pass along there's a conference that 87 00:03:57,660 --> 00:03:55,720 she's attending it's called the final 88 00:03:59,040 --> 00:03:57,670 transition conference and what those 89 00:04:01,470 --> 00:03:59,050 folks her tongue is really kind of 90 00:04:03,390 --> 00:04:01,480 interesting they're looking at how some 91 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:03,400 of this groundbreaking cutting-edge 92 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:06,250 research into extended consciousness in 93 00:04:10,860 --> 00:04:08,410 particular near-death experience in 94 00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:10,870 medium communication might prepare 95 00:04:17,849 --> 00:04:15,550 families for end-of-life transitions you 96 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:17,859 know when people die so the final 97 00:04:20,820 --> 00:04:19,390 transition conference is what it's 98 00:04:23,490 --> 00:04:20,830 called they'll have a link in the show 99 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:23,500 notes it's coming up in September but 100 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:24,850 you get some kind of discount if you 101 00:04:29,220 --> 00:04:26,650 register early and they also have a live 102 00:04:31,230 --> 00:04:29,230 streaming option they even give uce 103 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:31,240 credits if that's something that might 104 00:04:35,090 --> 00:04:33,250 be important to you so check it out to 105 00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:35,100 be a link in the show notes but for now 106 00:04:42,180 --> 00:04:39,270 here's my interview with Andy Paquette 107 00:04:45,390 --> 00:04:42,190 today we welcome Andy Paquette - skeptic 108 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:45,400 oh and is the author of dreamer 20 years 109 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:48,130 of psychic dreams and how they changed 110 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:50,710 my life that leads into one of the 111 00:04:55,290 --> 00:04:52,510 reasons that Andy is here today because 112 00:04:57,659 --> 00:04:55,300 he just published a scholarly paper in 113 00:05:01,170 --> 00:04:57,669 the Journal of scientific exploration 114 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:01,180 titled can death-related dreams predict 115 00:05:05,430 --> 00:05:03,010 future deaths it's pretty 116 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:05,440 straightforward evidence from a dream 117 00:05:13,170 --> 00:05:09,570 journal comprising nearly 12,000 dreams 118 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:13,180 Andy is a professor in advanced computer 119 00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:15,460 graphics in the Netherlands it's a field 120 00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:17,950 he has extensive experience in having 121 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:21,750 worked in Hollywood on many big-name 122 00:05:28,140 --> 00:05:25,840 blockbuster motion pictures and TV shows 123 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:28,150 in terms of doing animation work and 124 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:31,630 managing people who do animation so he's 125 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:33,700 a longtime contributor also to skeptic 126 00:05:37,620 --> 00:05:35,380 oh he's been on the show he 127 00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:37,630 also hosted a couple of episodes for us 128 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:39,640 a few years back we haven't heard from 129 00:05:44,130 --> 00:05:41,320 him in a little while so I think it'll 130 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:44,140 be great to catch up Andy welcome to 131 00:05:48,350 --> 00:05:46,170 skeptic oh thanks so much for joining me 132 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:48,360 thanks 133 00:05:52,620 --> 00:05:50,410 why don't we start with the beginning 134 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:52,630 and tell people about this body of work 135 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:54,850 and about how you came to write about 136 00:06:01,260 --> 00:05:56,770 your precognitive dreams in the first 137 00:06:02,970 --> 00:06:01,270 place okay so anyway because my wife was 138 00:06:05,070 --> 00:06:02,980 telling me everyone small she'd say oh 139 00:06:06,750 --> 00:06:05,080 you just dreamt about this you know 140 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:06,760 something would happen and she'd say 141 00:06:11,010 --> 00:06:08,890 well you you dreamt about that you told 142 00:06:13,290 --> 00:06:11,020 me about it and I'd say well yeah I 143 00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:13,300 dreamt about something like that I can 144 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:14,740 see why you would think that this was 145 00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:16,450 cognitive but that's just a bunch of 146 00:06:22,230 --> 00:06:19,660 baloney obviously you're just conflating 147 00:06:24,540 --> 00:06:22,240 you know a poor memory of something I 148 00:06:27,180 --> 00:06:24,550 said it's probably generic give us an 149 00:06:29,910 --> 00:06:27,190 example of something like that well this 150 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:29,920 is kind of funny because I had this very 151 00:06:34,590 --> 00:06:32,500 powerful dream that I was walking down a 152 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:34,600 street in the Amsterdam got mugged and 153 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:36,610 actually shot on this particular Street 154 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:39,250 in Amsterdam the dream was so realistic 155 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:42,310 that I actually thought I had died and 156 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:45,760 left my body and gone to see my wife who 157 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:47,650 at that time was my girlfriend at her 158 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:49,210 mother's house which was thousands miles 159 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:53,110 away in New York and and it was while I 160 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:54,850 was thinking about what it was like to 161 00:06:58,940 --> 00:06:56,650 be dead that I realized I was sitting up 162 00:07:01,410 --> 00:06:58,950 in my bed awake with my eyes wide open 163 00:07:04,230 --> 00:07:01,420 it was that strong I did I didn't even 164 00:07:07,230 --> 00:07:04,240 realize I was already awake but then two 165 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:07,240 or three weeks later I did get my on 166 00:07:13,790 --> 00:07:09,430 that Street in very much the same 167 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:13,800 circumstances but because of the dream I 168 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:16,900 to fight back and I escaped these these 169 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:20,710 two guys who had assaulted me and and 170 00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:22,510 like some of the details of that are 171 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:26,590 pretty amazing like the the street the 172 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:28,270 alley the situation the number of 173 00:07:33,510 --> 00:07:32,050 assailants all that stuff is is matches 174 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:33,520 perfectly with your dream right 175 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:36,310 yeah it did it but keep in mind at the 176 00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:38,230 time I was thinking okay yes it matches 177 00:07:41,910 --> 00:07:40,150 that's an amazing coincidence I wasn't 178 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:41,920 thinking this is actually much more 179 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:43,360 amazing coincidence than I was thinking 180 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:46,300 it was but that's what I was thinking 181 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:47,950 now I had told my wife of the 182 00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:50,050 dream before this happened because I 183 00:07:52,730 --> 00:07:51,280 called her and I said I just had this 184 00:07:54,930 --> 00:07:52,740 horrible dream I'm coming back to you 185 00:07:57,810 --> 00:07:54,940 America and because I was living in 186 00:08:00,300 --> 00:07:57,820 Holland at the time and and then when I 187 00:08:01,530 --> 00:08:00,310 didn't get back the subject that dream 188 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:01,540 came up we she says well of course that 189 00:08:06,570 --> 00:08:03,310 was a precognitive dream and I was like 190 00:08:07,710 --> 00:08:06,580 no that's just baloney and it happened a 191 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:07,720 couple other times you know I talked 192 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:09,730 about a plane crash with the Ramstein 193 00:08:14,610 --> 00:08:11,580 Air Show disaster and some other things 194 00:08:16,170 --> 00:08:14,620 and she kept on saying this and kept on 195 00:08:18,420 --> 00:08:16,180 really irritating me so I finally 196 00:08:21,530 --> 00:08:18,430 decided to find out I'll prove it and 197 00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:21,540 I'm gonna start writing this stuff down 198 00:08:26,190 --> 00:08:24,430 and I found really quickly that I had a 199 00:08:29,130 --> 00:08:26,200 lot of groups that that seems to relate 200 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:29,140 to future events it's just that a lot of 201 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:30,490 the dreams were of things that were 202 00:08:34,380 --> 00:08:32,350 really insignificant and so if I haven't 203 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:34,390 been writing it down I probably would 204 00:08:37,260 --> 00:08:36,610 have forgotten them but because I was 205 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:37,270 writing them down 206 00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:39,070 I was not only catching these really 207 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:40,750 fairly insignificant moments in my 208 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:42,250 future they were I'm thoroughly 209 00:08:48,380 --> 00:08:45,090 unpredictable because they're so strange 210 00:08:52,620 --> 00:08:48,390 to folks an example of kind of an 211 00:08:54,570 --> 00:08:52,630 idiosyncratic minor little event that 212 00:09:00,440 --> 00:08:54,580 you captured in your dream journal and 213 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:03,270 and I bought some stamps and they just 214 00:09:07,890 --> 00:09:05,260 handed me a whole block full of dinosaur 215 00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:07,900 stamps which at that time had just been 216 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:09,420 released so I had never seen them before 217 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:11,710 so why would I dream about what kind of 218 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:13,090 stamp I'm going to get it to post-office 219 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:14,710 there's absolutely no meaning to it at 220 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:17,530 all and yet that's what happened later 221 00:09:22,850 --> 00:09:20,890 that day so those those kinds of kind of 222 00:09:25,950 --> 00:09:22,860 simple things would happen fairly often 223 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:25,960 but in the middle of all that I was also 224 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:27,250 catching some of these bigger things 225 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:28,870 like I had a dream a couple dreams 226 00:09:32,690 --> 00:09:30,910 actually about the 9/11 disaster and 227 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:32,700 some other things like that 228 00:09:37,020 --> 00:09:34,930 first of all poor and then the second 229 00:09:39,330 --> 00:09:37,030 Gulf War as well but the thing is is 230 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:39,340 that it it took that effort and it was a 231 00:09:42,420 --> 00:09:40,870 big effort because I was recording them 232 00:09:45,830 --> 00:09:42,430 every night I was waking up three four 233 00:09:48,570 --> 00:09:45,840 times a night I was risking my wife's 234 00:09:49,890 --> 00:09:48,580 displeasure because it kind of annoyed 235 00:09:52,110 --> 00:09:49,900 her to have me wake up in the know that 236 00:09:54,660 --> 00:09:52,120 I didn't write things down and then 237 00:09:58,290 --> 00:09:54,670 translate started the whole thing she 238 00:10:00,450 --> 00:09:58,300 was I mean I remember not a few times 239 00:10:01,350 --> 00:10:00,460 when she would say what the hell are you 240 00:10:04,980 --> 00:10:01,360 doing 241 00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:04,990 I'd be writing my dream and but I kept 242 00:10:09,210 --> 00:10:06,790 that up and I was pretty assiduous about 243 00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:09,220 it now one thing that's kind of funny 244 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:11,260 about not having an opportunity to 245 00:10:14,699 --> 00:10:12,970 really see examples of other people 246 00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:14,709 doing the same thing is it becomes very 247 00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:16,870 easy to become isolated in your 248 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:19,350 knowledge and not have the ability to 249 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:21,930 compare it I didn't realize I was 250 00:10:27,329 --> 00:10:24,790 starting the compilation of one of the 251 00:10:30,030 --> 00:10:27,339 largest dream journals that anyone would 252 00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:30,040 ever likely see at the time that seemed 253 00:10:32,759 --> 00:10:31,120 to me that there are probably millions 254 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:32,769 of people who are keeping journals that 255 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:35,410 were as detailed as mine I later found 256 00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:38,890 out that wasn't the case but but at the 257 00:10:41,819 --> 00:10:40,180 time it just seemed normal and I just 258 00:10:44,790 --> 00:10:41,829 kept on doing it it was so interesting 259 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:44,800 that I didn't stop for a long long time 260 00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:47,170 and this is also because the dreams got 261 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:49,000 more interesting than just precognitive 262 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:50,230 dreams they started going into other 263 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:52,810 subject matter like ghosts and 264 00:10:59,579 --> 00:10:56,970 reincarnation spiritual dreams healing 265 00:11:01,050 --> 00:10:59,589 lots and lots of things like that they 266 00:11:03,329 --> 00:11:01,060 they just went way beyond simple 267 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:03,339 precognition v precognition became so 268 00:11:08,639 --> 00:11:06,910 uninteresting to me that I at a certain 269 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:08,649 point I decided I was gonna but I wasn't 270 00:11:13,139 --> 00:11:09,670 going to bother writing them down 271 00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:13,149 anymore unless I thought if this came if 272 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:15,040 it turned out this was a precognitive 273 00:11:21,389 --> 00:11:18,520 dream would it be an interesting 274 00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:21,399 precognitive dream Andy let's let's just 275 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:24,430 touch on a couple of those topics there 276 00:11:31,050 --> 00:11:26,920 I mean number one did your dreaming 277 00:11:33,569 --> 00:11:31,060 become more intense more spiritual 278 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:33,579 deeper as you started recording your 279 00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:36,370 dreams or do you think maybe your 280 00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:38,560 recording of your dreams helped you 281 00:11:44,010 --> 00:11:40,959 remember your dreams more and therefore 282 00:11:45,810 --> 00:11:44,020 you found them to be what they really 283 00:11:48,060 --> 00:11:45,820 were all along so is it kind of a memory 284 00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:48,070 thing or did the journaling actually 285 00:11:53,130 --> 00:11:51,160 kind of spur your dreams to kind of take 286 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:53,140 you deep deeper and then also maybe 287 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:55,930 touch on the idea of lucid dreaming as 288 00:11:59,490 --> 00:11:57,250 well because I think that's a term that 289 00:12:02,310 --> 00:11:59,500 people are familiar with and they'd want 290 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:02,320 to know is this part of a lucid dreaming 291 00:12:10,439 --> 00:12:06,970 process on your part I mean it did help 292 00:12:12,689 --> 00:12:10,449 my memory and in that way I think that 293 00:12:14,850 --> 00:12:12,699 it kind of cultivated her but some 294 00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:14,860 people would say incubated 295 00:12:20,010 --> 00:12:17,980 dreams that maybe wouldn't have happened 296 00:12:22,290 --> 00:12:20,020 otherwise because I was directing my 297 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:22,300 attention inward in a way that I haven't 298 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:24,130 been doing before but on the other hand 299 00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:26,050 I think I always have the propensity for 300 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:28,240 this kind of dream because I I do 301 00:12:32,340 --> 00:12:30,310 remember dreams from my childhood that 302 00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:32,350 like they were out-of-body experience 303 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:34,060 it's I mean at the time I just thought 304 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:35,800 they were interesting flying dreams or 305 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:37,570 whatever and I like I remember one very 306 00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:39,430 clearly I was something like seven years 307 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:40,990 old I was going to hurt her Academy in 308 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:43,810 San Jose California and I had this dream 309 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:45,370 that I went to a part of the school I'd 310 00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:47,410 never been to before and I was flying 311 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:48,880 around looking at all the facilities 312 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:51,130 there and it was very exciting and the 313 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:53,290 next day I woke up this little kid and I 314 00:12:58,800 --> 00:12:56,110 went in and I had this friend named 315 00:13:00,240 --> 00:12:58,810 Diane singleton and I said Diane hey guy 316 00:13:01,890 --> 00:13:00,250 told me I told her all about this room 317 00:13:04,250 --> 00:13:01,900 and I said let's go see if it really 318 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:04,260 looks like it did my dream and it did 319 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:06,340 and I just thought oh well that's an 320 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:07,810 amazing coincidence and of course the 321 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:09,370 skeptics today would say oh you probably 322 00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:10,360 saw it while you weren't paying 323 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:11,560 attention okay fine 324 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:13,690 but there were a lot of those things and 325 00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:15,550 and then when I get older I have other 326 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:17,200 things where it's absolutely impossible 327 00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:19,510 for for me to have had any normal 328 00:13:23,820 --> 00:13:21,670 knowledge of the thing and I think it's 329 00:13:26,820 --> 00:13:23,830 more appropriate to classify that as a 330 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:26,830 genuine OBE so I've had those things and 331 00:13:31,380 --> 00:13:29,470 you know I used to dream about spiritual 332 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:31,390 things before I was interested in 333 00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:32,860 spirituality I mean I considered myself 334 00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:35,200 an atheist for a great part of my life 335 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:39,940 and then while I was an atheist I was 336 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:42,390 dreaming about angels and about 337 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:45,730 religious figures from the Christian 338 00:13:49,590 --> 00:13:48,250 theology for the most part but I didn't 339 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:49,600 really know anything about that but I 340 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:50,620 was dreaming about him anyway 341 00:13:54,990 --> 00:13:52,450 you know I started doing yoga when I was 342 00:13:56,910 --> 00:13:55,000 in New York in my early 20s and I 343 00:13:59,010 --> 00:13:56,920 remember one guy at the integral yoga 344 00:14:00,330 --> 00:13:59,020 Institute kind of I don't know if it's 345 00:14:02,130 --> 00:14:00,340 fair to say that he wanted to take 346 00:14:05,550 --> 00:14:02,140 credit for me having interesting dreams 347 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:05,560 because I was getting good at yoga or or 348 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:07,390 if it just was a logical explanation for 349 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:10,390 him but I I have to say that I was 350 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:12,730 having this stuff before I was doing 351 00:14:15,180 --> 00:14:13,090 yoga 352 00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:15,190 I will admit though that I did actually 353 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:17,500 get fairly advanced in my pasta net 354 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:20,890 performer performing so I was able to do 355 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:22,930 some pretty tricky yoga poses as I think 356 00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:24,250 you know if you've seen me play you have 357 00:14:28,950 --> 00:14:26,230 the photos to prove it and 358 00:14:31,530 --> 00:14:28,960 yes someone who's done hatha yoga or 359 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:31,540 yoga asanas I guess we should say for 25 360 00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:34,690 years can attest that I mean I've only 361 00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:36,640 run across a couple people in my life 362 00:14:46,860 --> 00:14:39,040 who can do the poses that you can do I 363 00:14:50,130 --> 00:14:46,870 can't do anything close to that yeah so 364 00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:50,140 so yeah I think it helps train me but I 365 00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:52,840 think that the the ability was always 366 00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:54,280 there and frankly this is gonna sound 367 00:14:56,850 --> 00:14:55,360 kind of strange to some of your 368 00:14:59,100 --> 00:14:56,860 listeners but I think it's always been 369 00:14:59,880 --> 00:14:59,110 something that was meant to happen in my 370 00:15:01,320 --> 00:14:59,890 life 371 00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:01,330 I don't believe that something that's 372 00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:03,240 hit this large of an impact on my life 373 00:15:08,190 --> 00:15:06,280 could possibly be an accident I think it 374 00:15:10,770 --> 00:15:08,200 was just part of my life plan for some 375 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:10,780 reason so Andy let me let me then bring 376 00:15:14,070 --> 00:15:12,490 you back because I know I'm covering you 377 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:14,080 with a lot of questions but you know 378 00:15:18,090 --> 00:15:15,250 we've talked about this so many times 379 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:18,100 but I'm changing to and learning and 380 00:15:21,690 --> 00:15:20,050 advancing so you know it's a chance for 381 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:21,700 me to kind of reacquaint myself with 382 00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,910 this amazing experience that you've had 383 00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:27,760 and combine that with you know the 384 00:15:32,010 --> 00:15:30,310 scholarly and intellectual ability you 385 00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:32,020 have to analyze it I think it's just 386 00:15:40,430 --> 00:15:35,920 kind of a rare rare opportunity but sort 387 00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:40,440 out for me lucid dreaming out-of-body 388 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:43,920 experience dreaming if you will 389 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:47,650 spiritual dreaming you know what in your 390 00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:51,610 mind are the differentiators what are 391 00:15:55,770 --> 00:15:53,230 the different qualities I mean how do 392 00:15:58,050 --> 00:15:55,780 you pull that and pull that apart okay 393 00:16:00,180 --> 00:15:58,060 well the first thing is when I wake up 394 00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:00,190 and I I'm willing to write down in my 395 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:01,720 dream journal that I've had a lucid 396 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:04,420 dream it's because I remember that I 397 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:06,610 knew that I was dreaming during the 398 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:08,890 dream simple as that not a big deal I 399 00:16:13,950 --> 00:16:11,650 suspect that I have a lot more lucid 400 00:16:15,390 --> 00:16:13,960 dreams than I remember having had when I 401 00:16:17,010 --> 00:16:15,400 wake up I think some dreams 402 00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:17,020 it just doesn't occur to me to think 403 00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:18,910 about that because it's so obvious that 404 00:16:23,820 --> 00:16:21,580 I'm dreaming so it's not really an issue 405 00:16:26,970 --> 00:16:23,830 now when you say lucid dreaming do you 406 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:26,980 mean total control lucid dreaming where 407 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:29,170 you can control all the elements partial 408 00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:33,040 control memory I mean how do you how do 409 00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:35,830 you break down the idea of this idea of 410 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:37,600 lucid dreaming and for folks who aren't 411 00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:39,040 familiar if we're throwing out that term 412 00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:40,150 and you don't know what it is 413 00:16:47,010 --> 00:16:44,320 lucid dreaming just means dreaming only 414 00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:47,020 being aware that you're dreaming in the 415 00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:49,390 dream and therefore having some degree 416 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:52,300 of control over where the dream goes and 417 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:54,310 you know probably 20 years ago this was 418 00:16:59,000 --> 00:16:57,130 like a really controversial oh this 419 00:17:01,560 --> 00:16:59,010 doesn't really happen it's like 420 00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:01,570 out-of-body experience an astral 421 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:03,520 projection there's no such thing only 422 00:17:09,150 --> 00:17:06,490 now they've proven laboratories that 423 00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:09,160 lucid dreaming is in fact happening and 424 00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:10,990 they do some interesting there's been 425 00:17:15,419 --> 00:17:13,240 some interesting experiments REM and and 426 00:17:17,790 --> 00:17:15,429 other stuff that shows that yeah this is 427 00:17:20,850 --> 00:17:17,800 a real phenomena that people have yeah 428 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:20,860 well one thing my definition of lucid 429 00:17:24,449 --> 00:17:22,510 dreaming is it differs quite a bit from 430 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:24,459 Robert Wagner's and frankly I think 431 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:26,140 Robert is pretty interesting for this 432 00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:29,650 reason in his case he has these lucid 433 00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:31,900 dreams where he like in tries to have 434 00:17:35,970 --> 00:17:34,390 lucid dreaming and he's able to exert a 435 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:35,980 certain amount of mental influence over 436 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:38,170 the contents of his dreams as a result 437 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:39,970 of actually succeeding at this and 438 00:17:45,210 --> 00:17:42,640 having these lucid dreams in my case 439 00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:45,220 when I have a lucid dream all I mean by 440 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:46,960 that is I'm aware I make no effort at 441 00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:48,730 all to control them and frankly I don't 442 00:17:54,510 --> 00:17:51,910 like to the reason is because when I 443 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:54,520 when I find myself exerting control in a 444 00:17:58,460 --> 00:17:56,260 dream and they don't have to be lucid 445 00:18:01,740 --> 00:17:58,470 for that to happen in fact rather often 446 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:01,750 when I'm not lucid it happens and I find 447 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:03,280 that the entire dream is essentially 448 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:04,630 destroyed because of that because 449 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:06,100 instead of paying attention to 450 00:18:10,830 --> 00:18:08,260 information it's coming at me I'm trying 451 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:10,840 to change the information and it has the 452 00:18:16,410 --> 00:18:12,970 effect of ruining the translation as it 453 00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:16,420 were so the way Robert talks about it's 454 00:18:21,150 --> 00:18:18,160 a bit different from that and frankly I 455 00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:21,160 haven't had that kind of lucid dreaming 456 00:18:25,230 --> 00:18:23,200 experience I don't really try for either 457 00:18:28,169 --> 00:18:25,240 I don't know why but I've always had an 458 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:28,179 aversion to trying to manipulate my 459 00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:29,440 dreams like that because I think they're 460 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:30,940 interesting enough without having to do 461 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:34,450 that so I don't really try to it for me 462 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,330 the my goal if I if I become lucid in a 463 00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:39,760 dream is simply to go along with it and 464 00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:42,340 see what it is that I'm trying I'm 465 00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:43,600 supposed to get out of the dream 466 00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:46,240 remember one dream work this guy kept 467 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:48,429 essentially trying to wake me up with an 468 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:50,370 ax dream he tried it three times and 469 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:52,510 finally it 470 00:18:59,580 --> 00:18:57,490 what worked was he he asked me to smell 471 00:19:01,560 --> 00:18:59,590 some herbs this is actually fairly 472 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:01,570 common I'll have these characters will 473 00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:03,970 have me do something that's a sensory 474 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:05,440 experience of some kind like drinking 475 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:07,510 tea or smelling an herb or whatever and 476 00:19:10,770 --> 00:19:09,610 that has the effect strangely enough of 477 00:19:12,540 --> 00:19:10,780 waking me up in the dream and then I 478 00:19:14,580 --> 00:19:12,550 suddenly am aware that I'm a dreaming 479 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:14,590 and then they this dream character will 480 00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:17,170 say to me okay now that you're here now 481 00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:18,670 that you can actually pay attention to 482 00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:20,680 me it's not that you're not like you 483 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:22,720 know like dragging away you know all of 484 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:24,820 my attempts to give you a message now we 485 00:19:28,170 --> 00:19:26,650 can talk and then they'll usually give 486 00:19:31,380 --> 00:19:28,180 me a message or show me something or ask 487 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:31,390 me to do something and it tends to be a 488 00:19:36,210 --> 00:19:33,370 spiritual nature so in that particular 489 00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:36,220 case he brought me to some kind of a 490 00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:39,280 hospital in the Middle East and he was 491 00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,140 showing me all these patients and he 492 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:43,360 wanted me to spiritually help them a 493 00:19:50,910 --> 00:19:47,650 healing level so so so anyway you enter 494 00:19:53,610 --> 00:19:50,920 that kind of dream okay so I'm glad you 495 00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:53,620 made that differentiation in terms of 496 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:55,990 lucid dream and lucidity and there's a 497 00:20:00,270 --> 00:19:58,690 whole way we could break that down but 498 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:00,280 let's move on and talk about the 499 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:02,770 spiritual aspect when you enter that 500 00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:05,050 realm that dimension whatever we want to 501 00:20:12,510 --> 00:20:09,790 call it where do you think you are are 502 00:20:15,870 --> 00:20:12,520 you in the same place that we all are 503 00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:15,880 when we dream or are you in a different 504 00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:19,360 place can we all access that at that 505 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:21,400 spiritual realm that you access through 506 00:20:36,660 --> 00:20:30,610 dreaming I think - and some of us really 507 00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:36,670 it's not part of it's not part of the 508 00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:38,830 plan for a life it's like it gets in the 509 00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:40,240 way of other things for trying to 510 00:20:43,950 --> 00:20:41,920 accomplish with their life and so it's 511 00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:43,960 like that kind of things blocked off but 512 00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:46,180 I think a lot of people probably do this 513 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:48,460 without realizing it that when they 514 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:51,130 sleep they essentially are are freed of 515 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:52,810 their their physical constraints and 516 00:20:57,390 --> 00:20:54,610 then they do these things which they 517 00:20:58,740 --> 00:20:57,400 tend to forget when they wake up and I 518 00:21:00,960 --> 00:20:58,750 think there's a reason for forgetting 519 00:21:02,970 --> 00:21:00,970 it's because if they remember in a lot 520 00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:02,980 of cases it would affect decisions they 521 00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:05,200 make bother awake and that would change 522 00:21:09,570 --> 00:21:06,640 the experience they 523 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:09,580 have in the ranking state which may 524 00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:12,510 actually interfere with or ruin 525 00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:14,230 experiences that they're supposed to 526 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:18,190 have so I and strangely enough I I think 527 00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:20,950 that for instance in the skeptic 528 00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:23,679 believer debate that you have on psychic 529 00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:26,380 things I do feel like some people are 530 00:21:33,150 --> 00:21:29,110 really meant to remain skeptical because 531 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:33,160 if they don't then it affects how they 532 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:34,570 go through their life and things that 533 00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:35,860 they're supposed to learn from it other 534 00:21:39,090 --> 00:21:37,750 people you know are supposed to being 535 00:21:42,060 --> 00:21:39,100 able to produce this kind of information 536 00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:42,070 so so that it's there for those who who 537 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:43,270 are ready to accept it 538 00:21:49,620 --> 00:21:46,270 see but Andy that's the kind of almost 539 00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:49,630 new agey kind of stuff that drives folks 540 00:21:55,650 --> 00:21:53,860 nuts it really is because people don't 541 00:22:00,150 --> 00:21:55,660 but but here's here's what's so cool 542 00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:00,160 about you is that you went ahead and did 543 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:03,520 the research is you can you can say that 544 00:22:07,230 --> 00:22:05,230 you can form these opinions and share 545 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:07,240 these opinions but then when someone 546 00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:10,690 pushes you you can say okay here's the 547 00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:13,150 research here's what I did to record it 548 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:16,630 here's the not only the twelve twelve 549 00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:19,900 thousand dreams in my journal but here's 550 00:22:25,169 --> 00:22:22,799 the database breakdown of all of them so 551 00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:25,179 you know at some point I guess we should 552 00:22:29,340 --> 00:22:27,580 probably transition into the picking up 553 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:29,350 on this story you you know you start 554 00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:31,330 recording these dreams you start having 555 00:22:35,610 --> 00:22:33,460 this amazing dream journal you realize 556 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:35,620 it's kind of an amazing dream journal 557 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:38,100 you realize these dreams are just 558 00:22:43,230 --> 00:22:41,890 completely out of this world literally I 559 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:43,240 mean you're in the southern dimension 560 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:44,410 you're moving through these you're 561 00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:46,450 meeting these spirit beings and all this 562 00:22:52,140 --> 00:22:49,870 but at the same time the scientist in 563 00:22:55,220 --> 00:22:52,150 you is trying to figure out how to 564 00:22:57,210 --> 00:22:55,230 catalog this stuff and make it somewhat 565 00:23:00,320 --> 00:22:57,220 understandable in terms of scientific 566 00:23:03,210 --> 00:23:00,330 terms tell us how that played into this 567 00:23:05,460 --> 00:23:03,220 you look you gave me like three things 568 00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:05,470 to chew on and I really want to say two 569 00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:07,720 things really fast okay on the new-age 570 00:23:12,299 --> 00:23:10,630 subject for the most part New Age stuff 571 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:12,309 drives me bananas because it's not 572 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:15,490 evidence-based okay in the few cases 573 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:17,290 where I think there is some evidence 574 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:19,450 behind it that's that doesn't bother me 575 00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:20,410 so much but I do 576 00:23:24,420 --> 00:23:23,230 see a lot of things that come from as 577 00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:24,430 far as I'm concerned they have no 578 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:26,080 justification for the claims they make 579 00:23:31,620 --> 00:23:28,780 and it does bother me - so I just wanted 580 00:23:33,780 --> 00:23:31,630 to state that clearly as far as the 581 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:33,790 evidence is concerned you made the 582 00:23:37,710 --> 00:23:35,350 statement there it's not completely 583 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:37,720 accurate I didn't realize that these 584 00:23:42,750 --> 00:23:40,570 things were unusual for a very long time 585 00:23:44,910 --> 00:23:42,760 I'm not even sure it really hit me until 586 00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:44,920 I was living in Holland and I talk to 587 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:47,550 Stanley Crippler for the first time in 588 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:51,250 2009 or something like that I knew that 589 00:23:56,250 --> 00:23:54,490 it was unusual to have precognitive 590 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:56,260 dreams and write them down and then 591 00:23:59,910 --> 00:23:57,730 check them out but I didn't know how 592 00:24:01,260 --> 00:23:59,920 unusual it was the reason is because I 593 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:01,270 had read some books at the 594 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:03,010 parapsychology foundation in New York 595 00:24:07,050 --> 00:24:05,530 and it seemed to me if I was interested 596 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:07,060 in reading a book about this kind of 597 00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:08,890 type of solubility or that kind they 598 00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:11,350 always had a book or paper to read and 599 00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:13,500 so I developed this impression that 600 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:16,800 researchers in this field had like 601 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:19,540 thousands or even millions of cases to 602 00:24:22,350 --> 00:24:20,710 choose from and there were probably 603 00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:22,360 thousands of people like me around 604 00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:24,280 who were doing this kind of thing so I 605 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:26,500 really didn't know how unusual this was 606 00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:27,970 until I actually started looking into 607 00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:30,220 those records myself when I started 608 00:24:37,050 --> 00:24:33,550 researching this and that happened right 609 00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:37,060 around 2010 when I decided I was going 610 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:40,870 to write some journal articles now just 611 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:44,170 before that I did become aware that some 612 00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:45,430 of the more spiritual dreams I've had 613 00:24:50,430 --> 00:24:49,150 are extremely unusual it's kind of came 614 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:50,440 as a surprise to me too because I 615 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:54,130 thought that for instance Christians or 616 00:24:59,280 --> 00:24:56,230 you know people of any religious right 617 00:25:01,020 --> 00:24:59,290 most likely drempt often about God and 618 00:25:02,670 --> 00:25:01,030 religious subjects because they have a 619 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:02,680 need to do this so they would go to 620 00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:04,570 night you go to bed every night thinking 621 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:06,790 gee I hope I dream of God or Jesus or 622 00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:09,550 Allah or whatever and and then they 623 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:12,430 would pray - you know the Hindu deities 624 00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:14,530 or of Jesus or whatever it and then they 625 00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:16,660 would dream about them but then I ran 626 00:25:21,150 --> 00:25:19,180 across some research by a guy named 627 00:25:23,010 --> 00:25:21,160 Kelly boo Kelly who looked into that 628 00:25:25,290 --> 00:25:23,020 very question and he found that actually 629 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:25,300 very few people ever dream of those 630 00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:26,830 kinds of characters even when they 631 00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:29,950 really want to and so when I when I 632 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:31,720 looked at my own dreams in that context 633 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:33,010 I realized oh wait a minute I actually 634 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:34,210 have a lot of these a lot 635 00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:36,550 most people do but I knew that was 636 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:38,080 unusual but it was when I was talking to 637 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:40,660 Stanley Krypton er and he expressed you 638 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:42,250 know some real surprise that I had 639 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:44,050 accumulated as many records as I did and 640 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:46,450 that I had actually managed to validate 641 00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:49,090 so many of them that I suddenly suddenly 642 00:25:54,930 --> 00:25:51,430 realized that my database is extremely 643 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:54,940 unusual and I hope he doesn't mind that 644 00:25:57,810 --> 00:25:56,530 I keep saying this but I think it was a 645 00:25:59,580 --> 00:25:57,820 really great comment 646 00:26:01,950 --> 00:25:59,590 he said it's far as he knew there were 647 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:01,960 only two databases that came close and 648 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:03,490 he wasn't sure that either one of them 649 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:06,130 on their own was the equal one was 650 00:26:08,970 --> 00:26:07,570 because the quality was about the same 651 00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:08,980 that the quantity was less and the other 652 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:10,480 the quantity was about the same with the 653 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:13,090 quality was less so so at that point I 654 00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:15,130 was thinking okay I'm probably sitting 655 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:16,960 with a relatively unique database here 656 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:19,330 and partially because you are this 657 00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:22,090 computer scientist in in another life 658 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:25,120 and you do understand database you did 659 00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:27,370 so I would just imagine I'm guessing 660 00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:28,990 here but I would imagine once you 661 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:32,200 started to really try and organize these 662 00:26:36,270 --> 00:26:33,970 in any way 663 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:36,280 you know compiling a database even if 664 00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:38,290 you weren't compiling a database yeah 665 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:43,440 what happened was a lot of damage to the 666 00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:45,970 Phoenix of all places in driest place on 667 00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:49,240 earth and I thought I'd better go ahead 668 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:50,560 and transfer all these things so I 669 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:52,090 started transcribing them into a Word 670 00:26:56,210 --> 00:26:53,770 file now that's what I used when I was 671 00:26:58,380 --> 00:26:56,220 writing my book but then when I started 672 00:26:59,730 --> 00:26:58,390 writing my first couple of papers I 673 00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:59,740 thought you know this this really isn't 674 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:01,360 good enough working with it like this 675 00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:03,850 and I started making Excel documents 676 00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:06,100 that would allow me to sort the data but 677 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:08,260 that really wasn't good enough either so 678 00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:10,690 when I decided to write this paper that 679 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:12,880 we're eventually going to talk about I I 680 00:27:17,970 --> 00:27:16,210 thought I realized I had to have a real 681 00:27:20,820 --> 00:27:17,980 proper database there's no way around it 682 00:27:22,230 --> 00:27:20,830 I had kind of resisted doing it because 683 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:22,240 I know it was gonna take me a long time 684 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:25,170 to get it put together but this paper 685 00:27:30,660 --> 00:27:27,610 literally had its genesis probably in 686 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:30,670 about 2011 when I realized that the only 687 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:33,130 way to do this desperate study was to 688 00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:35,110 find all the death dreams and to do that 689 00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:36,840 I absolutely had to make the database 690 00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:39,430 because I was going to I needed to code 691 00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:42,070 all the dreams with with terms that 692 00:27:46,750 --> 00:27:44,110 would allow me to find things easily and 693 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:46,760 to be able to sort them properly 694 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:50,690 so it took me a solid two years just to 695 00:27:55,810 --> 00:27:53,810 prepare that database and by the time 696 00:27:57,310 --> 00:27:55,820 I'd done that I was already deep into 697 00:28:00,880 --> 00:27:57,320 writing other papers nice work and my 698 00:28:02,410 --> 00:28:00,890 PhD but I kept at this thing and I kept 699 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:02,420 on having more dreams so the thing is 700 00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:04,130 even after I'd established the database 701 00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:06,830 I now had like another 600 dreams to add 702 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:08,750 to it or something and that was all had 703 00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:10,850 to be coded so it really took a lot of 704 00:28:16,390 --> 00:28:13,520 time just to develop the raw material I 705 00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:16,400 was going to work with and this is one 706 00:28:20,770 --> 00:28:18,320 of the things I really hope your your 707 00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:20,780 listeners appreciate because the kind of 708 00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:22,820 study that this is would be almost 709 00:28:27,610 --> 00:28:25,550 impossible to do for just about anybody 710 00:28:29,710 --> 00:28:27,620 in the world who doesn't have the 711 00:28:31,780 --> 00:28:29,720 database I have it would be really hard 712 00:28:34,690 --> 00:28:31,790 I mean it's 25 years worth of dreams 713 00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:34,700 that yield eight really interesting 714 00:28:39,310 --> 00:28:37,340 cases okay and this is me making a huge 715 00:28:41,380 --> 00:28:39,320 effort to record them over a long period 716 00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:41,390 of time starting when I know nothing 717 00:28:46,270 --> 00:28:43,960 about research methods starting when I 718 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:46,280 don't even know about other research in 719 00:28:49,180 --> 00:28:47,330 the field I'm just doing it as 720 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:49,190 interesting and I kind of had to start 721 00:28:52,750 --> 00:28:50,780 at that point because if I had waited 722 00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:52,760 until I understood this stuff it'd all 723 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:54,260 be over I'm already getting I'm in 724 00:28:59,200 --> 00:28:57,530 middle-age I hate Whitman and how much 725 00:29:00,670 --> 00:28:59,210 time do I have left to be doing it just 726 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:00,680 start something like that I don't know 727 00:29:05,050 --> 00:29:03,410 but the point is that it takes a lot of 728 00:29:06,790 --> 00:29:05,060 time it takes a lot of effort it takes a 729 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:06,800 lot of dedication and it takes some 730 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:08,390 knowledge and it takes some expertise as 731 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:10,730 well not everyone is going to be suited 732 00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:13,130 to to making this kind of a database or 733 00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:15,320 analyzing it the way I did or or 734 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:17,960 verifying it because let's add that you 735 00:29:23,530 --> 00:29:20,390 mentioned that but I mean let's break 736 00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:23,540 down the process how it works you have a 737 00:29:29,410 --> 00:29:26,720 dream you record the dream and then you 738 00:29:32,050 --> 00:29:29,420 go about in many cases trying to 739 00:29:33,610 --> 00:29:32,060 validate the information that came 740 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:33,620 through and dream write help tell us 741 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:36,250 that process the way it started out was 742 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:38,930 Kitty had said I was having precognitive 743 00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:40,250 dreams okay so that's easy enough to 744 00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:41,750 check out I write the dream down and if 745 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:44,060 something later seems to match it then I 746 00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:45,770 can compare the two I can compare the 747 00:29:48,550 --> 00:29:46,910 written record with the thing that 748 00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:48,560 happens inside well this is similar 749 00:29:53,050 --> 00:29:50,750 enough that it looks like it's a legit 750 00:29:54,970 --> 00:29:53,060 example of a precognitive dream let's 751 00:29:57,580 --> 00:29:54,980 add in there from a scientific 752 00:29:59,919 --> 00:29:57,590 standpoint that would be rather weak 753 00:30:02,190 --> 00:29:59,929 right I mean because it's just one 754 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:02,200 person's account and you're not only 755 00:30:06,190 --> 00:30:04,610 having the pre kind of dreams but you're 756 00:30:07,570 --> 00:30:06,200 the one who's validating the 757 00:30:09,869 --> 00:30:07,580 precognitive gene you have no 758 00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,879 third-party validation whatsoever so 759 00:30:14,019 --> 00:30:11,600 scientifically that wouldn't be really 760 00:30:15,999 --> 00:30:14,029 strong right ah well ok if it was 761 00:30:17,769 --> 00:30:16,009 exactly as you said yes and that does 762 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:17,779 fit some of the examples but not all of 763 00:30:22,090 --> 00:30:19,570 them because I do have third-party 764 00:30:24,190 --> 00:30:22,100 independent verification of elements in 765 00:30:25,570 --> 00:30:24,200 some cases exactly so that's why I was 766 00:30:28,299 --> 00:30:25,580 trying to lead you in to explain how 767 00:30:30,369 --> 00:30:28,309 that works then ok well sometimes would 768 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:30,379 be a dream of for instance something 769 00:30:34,989 --> 00:30:32,210 that's independently verifiable like a 770 00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:34,999 Time magazine cover okay so the Time 771 00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:36,470 magazine cover would come out this is a 772 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:39,110 physical object and then you could 773 00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:41,570 verify that the drawing in my journal 774 00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:43,039 manages that person at that point you're 775 00:30:46,899 --> 00:30:45,440 trusting that I dated it properly so you 776 00:30:49,259 --> 00:30:46,909 will go a step further so then I'm 777 00:30:52,029 --> 00:30:49,269 having at a body experiences that 778 00:30:55,419 --> 00:30:52,039 national events in the lives of people I 779 00:30:57,310 --> 00:30:55,429 know and then I've in a couple cases had 780 00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:57,320 those people send me letters to verify 781 00:31:01,720 --> 00:30:59,360 yes I called them out of the blues who 782 00:31:04,049 --> 00:31:01,730 asked him to validate this dream and in 783 00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:04,059 fact it did match up fairly well with 784 00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:05,840 circumstances in their life in some 785 00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:07,340 other part of the world like my friend 786 00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:08,720 Richard breathing who's a high energy 787 00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:12,830 physicist was working in Tokyo at the 788 00:31:18,639 --> 00:31:16,190 time I had a couple of OBE dreams with 789 00:31:20,379 --> 00:31:18,649 him in them and he was actually very 790 00:31:21,999 --> 00:31:20,389 skeptical and I don't know if it annoyed 791 00:31:24,609 --> 00:31:22,009 him to have to verify them for me but 792 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:24,619 that he was highly skeptical and yet he 793 00:31:30,450 --> 00:31:26,570 did verify them nevertheless because as 794 00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:30,460 a honest researcher he knows what he saw 795 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:32,840 so you called him up and said hey 796 00:31:37,269 --> 00:31:35,330 Richard I had this dream about you and 797 00:31:39,759 --> 00:31:37,279 it seemed pretty significant for me I 798 00:31:41,859 --> 00:31:39,769 want to review the dream and I want you 799 00:31:44,109 --> 00:31:41,869 to tell me if this really happened in 800 00:31:46,210 --> 00:31:44,119 your life or not that's how I would have 801 00:31:47,859 --> 00:31:46,220 done a bit like the second or third or 802 00:31:49,539 --> 00:31:47,869 fourth time but the first time was a 803 00:31:51,369 --> 00:31:49,549 little different because I had never 804 00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:51,379 called anybody to verify this kind of 805 00:31:56,259 --> 00:31:54,350 thing before so I called him from from 806 00:31:58,090 --> 00:31:56,269 New York to Japan at a time when I could 807 00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,100 barely afford a transatlantic call so 808 00:32:01,299 --> 00:32:00,080 this is expensive and it was one of the 809 00:32:04,269 --> 00:32:01,309 few times I've ever made a call like 810 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:04,279 that but I called him up and I actually 811 00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:07,580 eased into it I said Richard how are you 812 00:32:11,470 --> 00:32:09,769 I had a dream about you last night it 813 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:11,480 was kind of funny and I was kind of 814 00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:13,850 not giving him any idea that I thought 815 00:32:16,899 --> 00:32:15,440 it was significant although I got it 816 00:32:18,820 --> 00:32:16,909 sitting sitting written down in my 817 00:32:20,769 --> 00:32:18,830 journal right in front of me but I said 818 00:32:22,090 --> 00:32:20,779 yeah I dreamt you were you know sitting 819 00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:22,100 at this table he had a little box there 820 00:32:26,019 --> 00:32:23,990 and you're cutting up these these things 821 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:26,029 and they had these letters on them like 822 00:32:29,610 --> 00:32:27,289 Scrabble tiles and then you're throwing 823 00:32:31,810 --> 00:32:29,620 on the box and he was like that's 824 00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:31,820 basically what I was doing last night it 825 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:33,320 was labeling these circuit boards he was 826 00:32:37,090 --> 00:32:34,610 cutting them into little pieces and then 827 00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:37,100 you know giving them these alpha 828 00:32:40,570 --> 00:32:39,230 pinnacle labels that they look like 829 00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:40,580 Scrabble tiles in the tossing them in a 830 00:32:45,879 --> 00:32:43,190 box and so he was really surprised by 831 00:32:47,409 --> 00:32:45,889 that but I I didn't at first clue him 832 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:47,419 into the fact that I thought it was 833 00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:49,570 possible he was going to recognize it 834 00:32:53,529 --> 00:32:52,159 after that though I was pretty clear 835 00:32:55,899 --> 00:32:53,539 about it I was like I had a game I want 836 00:32:57,370 --> 00:32:55,909 to verify it and to me a favor you know 837 00:32:58,810 --> 00:32:57,380 there were times when I'd call somebody 838 00:32:59,860 --> 00:32:58,820 up and they weren't able to verify it 839 00:33:02,289 --> 00:32:59,870 they'd say no I don't think that 840 00:33:04,269 --> 00:33:02,299 happened but that was actually less 841 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:04,279 common than people who did very fine 842 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:07,130 them and sometimes it happened that I 843 00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:09,289 would say a dream to someone or I 844 00:33:13,090 --> 00:33:10,880 describe it ring to someone this 845 00:33:14,919 --> 00:33:13,100 happened with dr. David Rybak a guy who 846 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:14,929 wrote a book called dreams come true but 847 00:33:17,470 --> 00:33:16,250 I had a dream about him and I described 848 00:33:21,129 --> 00:33:17,480 it to him he says no that didn't happen 849 00:33:23,889 --> 00:33:21,139 and I said I didn't say the events in 850 00:33:26,169 --> 00:33:23,899 the dream happened to you I dreamed that 851 00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:26,179 somebody told you about the events that 852 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:27,049 that they had happened to that other 853 00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:29,600 person and then he said oh yeah that 854 00:33:34,330 --> 00:33:33,049 happens parking lot this guy who works 855 00:33:36,940 --> 00:33:34,340 in the same office building that I do 856 00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:36,950 that I don't even know I was telling you 857 00:33:40,029 --> 00:33:38,510 about this amazing coincidence where 858 00:33:42,909 --> 00:33:40,039 this two cars got destroyed in two 859 00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:42,919 different storms no no so and that's one 860 00:33:47,289 --> 00:33:45,320 that you told previously on skeptic oh 861 00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:47,299 but let me jump in there because 862 00:33:52,029 --> 00:33:49,700 someone's gonna go file drawer problem 863 00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:52,039 you know he's throwing away the ones 864 00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:54,500 that don't match or they're gonna say oh 865 00:34:00,330 --> 00:33:56,630 you know he's fishing for more 866 00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:00,340 information but maybe it's worth quickly 867 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:05,480 retelling the complexity of this dream 868 00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:09,530 and the unlikeliness that this guy would 869 00:34:18,010 --> 00:34:12,560 have any association with anyone who had 870 00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:18,020 this kind of experience okay that's what 871 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:21,440 this article is personally about is that 872 00:34:26,350 --> 00:34:23,569 because I have the database I know 873 00:34:28,750 --> 00:34:26,360 exactly how 874 00:34:30,820 --> 00:34:28,760 anybody appears in the journal so for 875 00:34:33,580 --> 00:34:30,830 instance if I'm typing it in right now I 876 00:34:36,430 --> 00:34:33,590 type in the name David Rybak or just 877 00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:36,440 Rybak and I get 27 dreams total out of 878 00:34:40,330 --> 00:34:38,840 25 years okay I just did that right now 879 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:40,340 I just did a search I haven't read them 880 00:34:45,070 --> 00:34:43,010 for all I know some of these are not in 881 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:45,080 a context it would make them dreams 882 00:34:50,350 --> 00:34:47,570 about David Rybak but that's 27 out of 883 00:34:51,879 --> 00:34:50,360 almost 12,000 dreams already that's 884 00:34:54,220 --> 00:34:51,889 telling you the file burrow effect it's 885 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:54,230 not a likely culprit here but in this 886 00:34:58,780 --> 00:34:56,690 particular case I dreamt that I saw 887 00:35:01,110 --> 00:34:58,790 David talking to a guy in a parking lot 888 00:35:04,270 --> 00:35:01,120 and this guy was telling him how he 889 00:35:05,710 --> 00:35:04,280 owned two cars and both of them had 890 00:35:10,090 --> 00:35:05,720 gotten destroyed in two separate 891 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:10,100 incidents in the same way where a a tree 892 00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:11,690 branch had fallen and crushed the roof 893 00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:13,910 of the car but it was two separate 894 00:35:18,130 --> 00:35:15,790 storms so that's actually a very unusual 895 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:18,140 pairing of events and keep in mind he 896 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:19,730 lived in Atlanta Georgia I lived in New 897 00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:22,610 Jersey at the time and I really wasn't 898 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:24,470 exactly following the local weather and 899 00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:26,810 other parts of the country even if you 900 00:35:30,970 --> 00:35:28,820 were following the weather why does it 901 00:35:33,340 --> 00:35:30,980 lead the fact that the guy with a tree 902 00:35:35,470 --> 00:35:33,350 would fall down and crush somebody's car 903 00:35:37,060 --> 00:35:35,480 so you tell this guy hey I had this 904 00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:37,070 dream and I think somebody told you 905 00:35:41,290 --> 00:35:38,960 about this extraordinary thing where 906 00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,300 they lost two of their cars and in 907 00:35:45,490 --> 00:35:43,520 weather storms and boom he says yeah 908 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:45,500 that that happened I mean how many times 909 00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:47,450 does that happened in his life where 910 00:35:51,250 --> 00:35:49,190 someone tell em hey you know amazing 911 00:35:54,130 --> 00:35:51,260 happen to me I have two cars and in two 912 00:35:55,810 --> 00:35:54,140 separate incidents of weather anomalies 913 00:36:01,530 --> 00:35:55,820 they both got crushed I mean that's a 914 00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:04,380 professor of mine I dreamt about him and 915 00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:09,920 the sensation of being allowing bees to 916 00:36:16,540 --> 00:36:13,280 sting me and it was really weird because 917 00:36:17,950 --> 00:36:16,550 I didn't feel it that I knew it was 918 00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:17,960 happening I had this really bizarre 919 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:21,440 creepy feeling that I that my body was 920 00:36:26,020 --> 00:36:23,570 reacting and yet it wasn't reacting and 921 00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:26,030 so when I told him about it he said that 922 00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:28,190 at the time I was having that dream 923 00:36:31,780 --> 00:36:30,110 approximately because we it's very hard 924 00:36:33,490 --> 00:36:31,790 to get these things exact but most 925 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:33,500 likely was in an hour too 926 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:35,330 he was on the phone with a friend of his 927 00:36:39,460 --> 00:36:37,310 who was partially paralyzed and the 928 00:36:41,290 --> 00:36:39,470 treatment was to allow herself to be 929 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:41,300 stung in exactly the way I had described 930 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:44,330 and it felt the same way to her as I 931 00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:46,610 described it to Ron so so the way she 932 00:36:49,570 --> 00:36:48,110 was telling about it it was like she was 933 00:36:52,420 --> 00:36:49,580 aware of this thing she could she could 934 00:36:54,130 --> 00:36:52,430 tell that she was being stunned and yet 935 00:36:56,020 --> 00:36:54,140 she didn't have the physical pain that 936 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:56,030 was associated with that and it was a 937 00:36:59,170 --> 00:36:57,650 really creepy sensation I tell you even 938 00:37:00,220 --> 00:36:59,180 just describing the dream I can't 939 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:00,230 remember what it felt like it was 940 00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:04,010 horrible but yeah that's that's like who 941 00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:06,560 who gets apathy that Sapa therapy that's 942 00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:07,790 what that's called this bee sting 943 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:10,220 therapy he's the only person I have ever 944 00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:12,050 met in my entire life that I know of 945 00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:14,870 that has any connection to that and yet 946 00:37:19,870 --> 00:37:16,880 on the one night that I dream about that 947 00:37:21,490 --> 00:37:19,880 subject he's actually had something 948 00:37:24,730 --> 00:37:21,500 happen in his day that's pertinent to it 949 00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:24,740 so so so Andy at this point your brain 950 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:26,960 has to be your mind has to be exploding 951 00:37:30,730 --> 00:37:28,970 in terms of all the stuff that's 952 00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:30,740 happening to you although as we heard 953 00:37:34,770 --> 00:37:32,240 about when we talked to you a few years 954 00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:34,780 ago you've had a lot of strange 955 00:37:39,850 --> 00:37:37,190 experiences kind of throughout your life 956 00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:39,860 I love the backgammon story multiple 957 00:37:44,980 --> 00:37:41,960 ones but we won't get into that just 958 00:37:47,170 --> 00:37:44,990 that you're not unfamiliar with kind of 959 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:47,180 extended consciousness kind of strange 960 00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:49,130 things but again what I think is just 961 00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:52,460 amazing and having known you for several 962 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:53,870 years and talked to you over the years 963 00:38:00,850 --> 00:37:57,890 is you kept pushing back in terms of how 964 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:00,860 does this fit into science what can we 965 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:01,810 do 966 00:38:07,450 --> 00:38:04,490 scientifically with this data and I 967 00:38:10,930 --> 00:38:07,460 think it's pushed you to really do some 968 00:38:14,050 --> 00:38:10,940 just innovative groundbreaking kind of 969 00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:14,060 work in terms of what to do with this 970 00:38:20,830 --> 00:38:16,790 kind of database and what it means for 971 00:38:23,230 --> 00:38:20,840 all anomalous anecdotal accounts I don't 972 00:38:25,450 --> 00:38:23,240 put anecdotal in air quotes because I 973 00:38:27,550 --> 00:38:25,460 think the real breakthrough here is you 974 00:38:29,590 --> 00:38:27,560 were seeking a way to take these 975 00:38:32,650 --> 00:38:29,600 accounts and take them out of the realm 976 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:32,660 of this oh we can dismiss that because 977 00:38:38,830 --> 00:38:35,090 it's just an anecdote and you want to 978 00:38:42,190 --> 00:38:38,840 find a way to bring it back into science 979 00:38:44,290 --> 00:38:42,200 as we understand science yeah well I I 980 00:38:46,970 --> 00:38:44,300 call them spontaneous experiences as 981 00:38:48,830 --> 00:38:46,980 opposed to an 982 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:48,840 there's in the difference between this 983 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:50,610 as far as looking at research on the 984 00:38:55,310 --> 00:38:53,490 subject is concerned is that an anecdote 985 00:38:56,690 --> 00:38:55,320 is really something that has no data 986 00:38:59,240 --> 00:38:56,700 behind it it doesn't it doesn't really 987 00:39:01,970 --> 00:38:59,250 have any kind of evidence-based 988 00:39:04,250 --> 00:39:01,980 validation a spontaneous experience 989 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:04,260 might have that even even if it's 990 00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:05,970 spontaneous even it isn't if it isn't 991 00:39:09,890 --> 00:39:07,920 generated purposely for the purpose of 992 00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:09,900 an experiment and in this particular 993 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:12,480 case you could say in a way that this is 994 00:39:15,860 --> 00:39:14,490 like a 25 year long experiment on my 995 00:39:18,070 --> 00:39:15,870 part where I just want to see what 996 00:39:21,620 --> 00:39:18,080 happens over the course of this 25 years 997 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:21,630 but as far as getting into the data I 998 00:39:28,010 --> 00:39:24,930 when I realized how unusual my database 999 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:28,020 was I started noticing a lot of gaps in 1000 00:39:33,710 --> 00:39:29,850 literature that I could actually answer 1001 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:33,720 things where the did have to do with 1002 00:39:37,310 --> 00:39:35,610 spontaneous experiences in particular 1003 00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:37,320 because generally speaking spontaneous 1004 00:39:42,740 --> 00:39:40,320 experiments experiences are not common 1005 00:39:45,620 --> 00:39:42,750 and rarely reported and when they are 1006 00:39:48,220 --> 00:39:45,630 reported it's a lot of times not with 1007 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:48,230 any kind of documentation attached to it 1008 00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:50,460 whereas in my case I have a very large 1009 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:52,920 body of documentation and which means 1010 00:39:56,720 --> 00:39:54,330 essentially that they're all reported 1011 00:39:58,460 --> 00:39:56,730 and this allows me to look into some 1012 00:40:00,590 --> 00:39:58,470 questions like the powder effect so when 1013 00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:00,600 we get to this death cream article for 1014 00:40:06,410 --> 00:40:04,320 instance I wasn't trying to come up with 1015 00:40:08,810 --> 00:40:06,420 another idea for an article when I 1016 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:08,820 decided to do this it was something 1017 00:40:12,590 --> 00:40:10,770 happened I had a dream and I looked it 1018 00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:12,600 up and I realized that I had buried in 1019 00:40:15,830 --> 00:40:14,310 my journal already any answer to a 1020 00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:15,840 question I hadn't even ever bothered 1021 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:18,060 asking and then I thought why I wonder 1022 00:40:21,170 --> 00:40:19,650 if that's gonna if I've got any more 1023 00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:21,180 examples like that in the journal so 1024 00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:24,360 this is an example of me not seeing 1025 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:27,150 something that was sigh in my journal at 1026 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:30,450 the time it happened but later asking 1027 00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:32,250 myself if I look at the data this way if 1028 00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:34,230 I just find examples that match this 1029 00:40:37,610 --> 00:40:36,000 criteria is there gonna be anything 1030 00:40:39,260 --> 00:40:37,620 there and I found that there actually 1031 00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:39,270 were quite a lot of dreams and it has to 1032 00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:41,280 do with dreams about people who have 1033 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:44,220 died I what I was wondering is is that 1034 00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,050 do I have dreams of people that have 1035 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:48,000 died that I didn't know had died that I 1036 00:40:53,210 --> 00:40:50,490 can now validate have died too or not 1037 00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:53,220 and then compare the dates in my journal 1038 00:40:57,710 --> 00:40:55,440 with when they actually died and see if 1039 00:40:58,810 --> 00:40:57,720 anything comes out of that and something 1040 00:41:00,460 --> 00:40:58,820 one thing that I found 1041 00:41:02,530 --> 00:41:00,470 really interesting about it is not only 1042 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:02,540 did I have a few examples of those kinds 1043 00:41:04,750 --> 00:41:03,110 of dreams 1044 00:41:08,430 --> 00:41:04,760 not only did I get an idea of how rare 1045 00:41:12,010 --> 00:41:08,440 they are but I also found that the the 1046 00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:12,020 standard test for validating a dream 1047 00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:14,870 about a person's death as precognitive 1048 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:18,110 or in any way psychic is that you have 1049 00:41:23,950 --> 00:41:21,650 the dream before they they die and it's 1050 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:23,960 very close in time to when they die but 1051 00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:26,570 I found several examples where the dream 1052 00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:28,880 was after they died but it was so it's 1053 00:41:33,130 --> 00:41:31,520 still so close to their death that it 1054 00:41:35,830 --> 00:41:33,140 was actually meaningful because that 1055 00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:35,840 person didn't appear on any other 1056 00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:37,880 occasion in the entire journal so I've 1057 00:41:42,190 --> 00:41:39,980 got examples where I've got one dream 1058 00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:42,200 about one person who in in this 1059 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:43,430 particular case I'm thinking of right 1060 00:41:47,350 --> 00:41:45,890 now is a stranger and the only dream I 1061 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:47,360 ever have about this one person out of 1062 00:41:50,590 --> 00:41:48,890 twelve thousand dreams or nearly twelve 1063 00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:50,600 thousand dreams is about their death and 1064 00:41:55,420 --> 00:41:53,180 they died two weeks earlier so so walk 1065 00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:55,430 us through some examples and I think 1066 00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:57,110 what you're gonna have to really nail 1067 00:42:01,450 --> 00:41:58,880 down there is for people like when you 1068 00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:01,460 say you had a dream about them and then 1069 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:02,960 you found out they had died two weeks 1070 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:04,910 earlier people are gonna immediately say 1071 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:08,090 well then you could have known somehow 1072 00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:12,170 some way that they were dead so handle 1073 00:42:18,010 --> 00:42:15,680 all the and this is like basics ABC kind 1074 00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:18,020 of stuff that I'm sure you thought about 1075 00:42:23,380 --> 00:42:20,390 the first five minutes you thought about 1076 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:23,390 this problem but still it's the question 1077 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:25,610 that people ask that immediately pops 1078 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:28,130 into their head so tell walk us through 1079 00:42:34,750 --> 00:42:31,370 how you how you verify that you really 1080 00:42:37,590 --> 00:42:34,760 have something here okay well I had this 1081 00:42:40,690 --> 00:42:37,600 one dream where a woman came to me and 1082 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:40,700 was telling me that a person I knew who 1083 00:42:46,270 --> 00:42:43,730 happen to be a clerk at a store a fancy 1084 00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:46,280 maybe five times in my life and had a 1085 00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:49,040 person close to him a relative petrified 1086 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:51,680 and that he was really despondent about 1087 00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:54,530 this as a result he was abusing drugs 1088 00:42:59,350 --> 00:42:56,960 and alcohol and she warned me that he 1089 00:43:03,070 --> 00:42:59,360 would die if he continued abusing these 1090 00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:03,080 things and she told me that she wanted 1091 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:06,560 me to go talk to him and and give him 1092 00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:09,410 this morning that she was giving me so 1093 00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:11,390 this is more or less like a complete 1094 00:43:14,890 --> 00:43:12,680 stranger it's somebody 1095 00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:14,900 not the grocery stores and literally I 1096 00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:16,790 have talked to the guy I mean I bought a 1097 00:43:21,460 --> 00:43:19,400 couple things from him I I do I didn't 1098 00:43:23,319 --> 00:43:21,470 know his first name but we hadn't really 1099 00:43:25,059 --> 00:43:23,329 talked about anything other than is this 1100 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:25,069 paint available and where is it that's 1101 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:26,690 kind of the extent of our couple of 1102 00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:29,210 conversations and it was in a new city - 1103 00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:31,730 I just moved to Phoenix so it's it's not 1104 00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:33,680 like I knew the area very well either 1105 00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:35,990 but anyway I went upstairs and I told my 1106 00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:37,670 wife about the dream and she was like so 1107 00:43:41,530 --> 00:43:39,470 are you gonna go talk to him and I was 1108 00:43:43,690 --> 00:43:41,540 like are you kidding me this guy I don't 1109 00:43:45,309 --> 00:43:43,700 know and give him this weird dream I 1110 00:43:47,020 --> 00:43:45,319 mean what if what if he hasn't had a 1111 00:43:49,329 --> 00:43:47,030 relative that's gonna be really kind of 1112 00:43:50,799 --> 00:43:49,339 embarrassing gonna be she said and she 1113 00:43:52,809 --> 00:43:50,809 really insisted she was like you have to 1114 00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:52,819 do this you have to do it at she was so 1115 00:43:57,490 --> 00:43:54,950 insistent that I was like okay fine 1116 00:43:59,109 --> 00:43:57,500 there was a pain because this store was 1117 00:44:01,000 --> 00:43:59,119 like 45 minutes away from where I lived 1118 00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:01,010 by car which means also is kind of 1119 00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:04,250 expensive cash wise so I drove all the 1120 00:44:08,380 --> 00:44:06,470 way down there and I get to the store 1121 00:44:10,329 --> 00:44:08,390 and I see this guy behind the camera and 1122 00:44:12,250 --> 00:44:10,339 I'm like over it how do I do this this 1123 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:12,260 so I said to him and I don't want to use 1124 00:44:19,150 --> 00:44:13,910 this real name here i'ma just call him 1125 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:19,160 Frank okay but I said so Frank did and I 1126 00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:21,170 gave that he was some shipment that he 1127 00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:22,400 might have had I said did you get those 1128 00:44:27,579 --> 00:44:26,270 what's in it yeah and he said he said oh 1129 00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:27,589 yeah they're in the back I was like okay 1130 00:44:30,789 --> 00:44:28,910 I did this because I wanted to take him 1131 00:44:32,620 --> 00:44:30,799 away from this big cluster of people it 1132 00:44:34,089 --> 00:44:32,630 was in front of the store so I could 1133 00:44:35,859 --> 00:44:34,099 have this private conversation so we get 1134 00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:35,869 to the back of the store and I said you 1135 00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:38,569 know it's a kind of a funny thing I have 1136 00:44:42,819 --> 00:44:41,119 a dream about you last night and he 1137 00:44:44,799 --> 00:44:42,829 looked at me kind of you know 1138 00:44:47,710 --> 00:44:44,809 quizzically like like he was wondering 1139 00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:47,720 what that meant and I said I get nothing 1140 00:44:56,530 --> 00:44:50,480 bad I hope and I was like well yeah 1141 00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:56,540 actually I said well it was let me let 1142 00:45:01,870 --> 00:44:57,680 me just put it to you this way if you 1143 00:45:04,990 --> 00:45:01,880 had a very close relative by recently 1144 00:45:06,910 --> 00:45:05,000 and he said yes I did 1145 00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:06,920 and I said okay well I had this young 1146 00:45:11,470 --> 00:45:08,990 woman come to me in this dream and I 1147 00:45:13,839 --> 00:45:11,480 described her job and she said it's 1148 00:45:15,339 --> 00:45:13,849 somebody only at this point did it occur 1149 00:45:17,319 --> 00:45:15,349 to me that the person who came to me in 1150 00:45:19,450 --> 00:45:17,329 the drink was the person who died okay 1151 00:45:22,660 --> 00:45:19,460 this oftentimes doesn't hit me until 1152 00:45:24,130 --> 00:45:22,670 later but anyway so while I was talking 1153 00:45:25,250 --> 00:45:24,140 to him did this I realize this and I 1154 00:45:27,860 --> 00:45:25,260 said so she told me 1155 00:45:30,740 --> 00:45:27,870 you were very upset about this and you 1156 00:45:32,540 --> 00:45:30,750 were abusing alcohol because of it and 1157 00:45:34,130 --> 00:45:32,550 you're gonna die as a result I did not 1158 00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:34,140 mention the drugs because I didn't want 1159 00:45:37,340 --> 00:45:35,880 him to feel like I was my next call was 1160 00:45:40,610 --> 00:45:37,350 maybe the police to have him arrested I 1161 00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:40,620 just mentioned the alcohol and I said so 1162 00:45:45,050 --> 00:45:42,180 does this make any sense to you and he 1163 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:45,060 said it's true my my sister-in-law who I 1164 00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:46,770 was very close to got killed in a car 1165 00:45:51,350 --> 00:45:50,040 crash I think it was it wasn't like two 1166 00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:51,360 weeks earlier but is almost weeks 1167 00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,560 earlier it was like 10 days earlier or 1168 00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:54,480 something like that she was parked at a 1169 00:46:00,530 --> 00:45:57,810 stoplight and a police car involved in a 1170 00:46:04,070 --> 00:46:00,540 high-speed car chase rammed the back of 1171 00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:04,080 her car and she was killed instantly and 1172 00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:06,780 he was despondent and he said he wasn't 1173 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:14,160 using alcohol and and then he said 1174 00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:15,570 something kind of surprised me he said 1175 00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:18,060 that he had a dream of her also earlier 1176 00:46:22,010 --> 00:46:19,440 in the week where she'd given him the 1177 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:22,020 exact same message she'd said you know 1178 00:46:26,420 --> 00:46:23,730 if you don't get over this if you don't 1179 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:26,430 stop abusing this stuff you will die you 1180 00:46:31,340 --> 00:46:28,410 need to stop so she told him the same 1181 00:46:34,730 --> 00:46:31,350 thing she told me which to me that was 1182 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:34,740 like the real validation okay now I 1183 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:37,050 didn't I I didn't even know her name I 1184 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:38,490 didn't know his name I didn't know I 1185 00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:40,850 mean they didn't know his last name so 1186 00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:43,800 if there had been some kind of police 1187 00:46:47,930 --> 00:46:46,440 blotter reported about this I wouldn't 1188 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:47,940 have had any way to connect it to him 1189 00:46:50,660 --> 00:46:49,170 because I didn't know what the guy's 1190 00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:50,670 last name was do you know what I mean in 1191 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:52,260 fact and this is one of the interesting 1192 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:55,050 things about this this paper I didn't 1193 00:46:59,180 --> 00:46:56,730 know his last name until I did this 1194 00:47:01,880 --> 00:46:59,190 paper which is like I think seven eight 1195 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:01,890 years later something like that I had to 1196 00:47:06,140 --> 00:47:04,050 research it I actually had to get 1197 00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:06,150 somebody in the United States call 1198 00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:07,680 around to figure out who this guy was 1199 00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:09,270 because I had never known whose last 1200 00:47:13,820 --> 00:47:11,310 name was and once they found who he was 1201 00:47:15,230 --> 00:47:13,830 then I had that person look for believe 1202 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:15,240 it or not like police flattered 1203 00:47:18,740 --> 00:47:17,130 newspaper articles and they couldn't 1204 00:47:21,230 --> 00:47:18,750 find anything on this even though they 1205 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:21,240 had the name because it wasn't in any of 1206 00:47:27,470 --> 00:47:22,650 those kinds of sources but eventually 1207 00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:27,480 they I was able to get ahold of some 1208 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:29,250 kind of report every what it was a hand 1209 00:47:33,050 --> 00:47:32,130 I think it was a memorial service type 1210 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:33,060 of a 1211 00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:35,850 a report where the church where she was 1212 00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:36,240 buried 1213 00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:37,590 you mentioned some of the details about 1214 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:40,560 it but it was not something that was 1215 00:47:45,770 --> 00:47:43,530 really covered in a public way and even 1216 00:47:46,940 --> 00:47:45,780 if it hadn't been I did would be no 1217 00:47:49,340 --> 00:47:46,950 reason for me to connect it to this 1218 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:49,350 single guy does that make sense yeah 1219 00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:52,530 yeah it makes total sense so this then 1220 00:47:59,630 --> 00:47:55,680 becomes one of the cases that you looked 1221 00:48:03,020 --> 00:47:59,640 at in this paper can dream belated 1222 00:48:05,660 --> 00:48:03,030 dreams predict future deaths yeah and 1223 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:05,670 you know the funny thing is that to me 1224 00:48:09,650 --> 00:48:07,050 the really exciting thing about this 1225 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:09,660 paper is that I didn't know what I was 1226 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:11,610 gonna find when I've written other 1227 00:48:14,930 --> 00:48:13,170 articles it was about things that I had 1228 00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:14,940 already found things that I already knew 1229 00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:17,040 had happened and I noticed that there 1230 00:48:21,290 --> 00:48:18,750 was a vacancy in the literature I 1231 00:48:23,330 --> 00:48:21,300 thought well if I write about this I can 1232 00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:23,340 I can have literature a little bit in 1233 00:48:28,820 --> 00:48:26,070 this area or that area but this one I 1234 00:48:31,070 --> 00:48:28,830 just suspected something was going on 1235 00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:31,080 and if you don't mind my describing 1236 00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:32,640 another one of these I'll tell you the 1237 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:34,380 one that gave me the idea for the papers 1238 00:48:39,950 --> 00:48:35,730 that all right yeah absolutely 1239 00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:39,960 okay um a long long long time ago 1240 00:48:43,580 --> 00:48:41,910 my mom had a friend again I'm not going 1241 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:43,590 to use her real name big office caller 1242 00:48:51,290 --> 00:48:48,450 Susan and she had been very close to her 1243 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:51,300 family for a while okay I was a little 1244 00:48:55,460 --> 00:48:52,890 kid the last time I saw her was maybe 1245 00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:55,470 nine years old something like this but 1246 00:49:00,080 --> 00:48:56,970 we had actually lived with them for a 1247 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:00,090 little while maybe four to three months 1248 00:49:05,810 --> 00:49:01,290 something like that when I was in 1249 00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:05,820 seventh grade and that was the last leaf 1250 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:07,980 strangely enough it was about religion 1251 00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:09,810 because they were this lady and her 1252 00:49:13,250 --> 00:49:11,910 husband were Christian and I thought my 1253 00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:13,260 I think my mom thought they were trying 1254 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:14,310 to push it on us too much or something 1255 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:18,690 but anyway and they thought my comic 1256 00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:20,370 book collection was up the devil which I 1257 00:49:24,710 --> 00:49:22,260 thought was ridiculous but in any event 1258 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:24,720 I haven't seen her a long time and then 1259 00:49:31,100 --> 00:49:28,650 one night in I think it was 2010 or 1260 00:49:32,660 --> 00:49:31,110 something I had a dream about her and I 1261 00:49:34,940 --> 00:49:32,670 had the feeling of the dream that she 1262 00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:34,950 had died and that she was coming to 1263 00:49:40,850 --> 00:49:38,400 basically give me a blessing that kind 1264 00:49:44,090 --> 00:49:40,860 of a thing so I thought that was kind of 1265 00:49:46,070 --> 00:49:44,100 interesting and I asked my mom to see if 1266 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:46,080 this lady had died but 1267 00:49:50,270 --> 00:49:48,570 she had moved my mom had moved the lady 1268 00:49:51,410 --> 00:49:50,280 had moved I had moved all of us have 1269 00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:51,420 moved none of us know where any of the 1270 00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:54,150 other people were and the last time my 1271 00:49:58,730 --> 00:49:56,700 mom knew where this gal was it's like 25 1272 00:50:01,880 --> 00:49:58,740 years earlier so she did a bit of 1273 00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:01,890 research and came up with nothing but 1274 00:50:06,530 --> 00:50:05,040 then a year later I had decided I was 1275 00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:06,540 really gonna pursue this article so I 1276 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:07,860 asked her again because the first time 1277 00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:09,570 when that didn't go anywhere I just kind 1278 00:50:13,460 --> 00:50:12,240 of decided to drop it but a year later I 1279 00:50:16,010 --> 00:50:13,470 thought no I really have to do this 1280 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:16,020 article so I asked my mom to please pin 1281 00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:18,090 it down and she found her and she had 1282 00:50:22,940 --> 00:50:20,160 died in 2010 the same year as my dream 1283 00:50:25,220 --> 00:50:22,950 now the interesting thing was I didn't 1284 00:50:28,070 --> 00:50:25,230 remember having ever dreamt about her 1285 00:50:31,730 --> 00:50:28,080 before okay so what that would mean is 1286 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:31,740 the only dream I had of her in my entire 1287 00:50:36,980 --> 00:50:35,490 dream journal is of her dying or you 1288 00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,990 thinking she's dead because of the 1289 00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:38,880 context of the dream in the same year 1290 00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:40,440 that she actually died and to me I 1291 00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,480 thought statistically that would be kind 1292 00:50:45,530 --> 00:50:44,400 of interesting because this is goes 1293 00:50:48,590 --> 00:50:45,540 completely against the founder effect 1294 00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:48,600 idea which is you have a like 10,000 1295 00:50:53,210 --> 00:50:51,270 20,000 dreams of a certain person and 1296 00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:53,220 then when they die you just attach the 1297 00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:54,510 most recent dream to it well in this 1298 00:50:58,580 --> 00:50:55,920 case I was pretty sure I hadn't heard 1299 00:51:00,500 --> 00:50:58,590 about her so thanks to my database I 1300 00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:00,510 typed in her name and I found out I had 1301 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:02,400 dreamt about her only once before 1302 00:51:06,890 --> 00:51:05,490 19 years earlier and it there was 1303 00:51:09,500 --> 00:51:06,900 nothing in the dream that would suggest 1304 00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:09,510 that she had died so the only dream that 1305 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:11,730 suggested her death at all was in the 1306 00:51:14,450 --> 00:51:13,770 year for actual death and the only other 1307 00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:14,460 dream 1308 00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:16,110 was 19 years previously there's this 1309 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:18,390 incredible desert between the two so 1310 00:51:22,460 --> 00:51:20,250 when I saw that I was thinking holy cow 1311 00:51:25,310 --> 00:51:22,470 I wonder if there are people who I have 1312 00:51:28,130 --> 00:51:25,320 never even bothered to check to see if 1313 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:28,140 they've died because they were it was 1314 00:51:33,290 --> 00:51:30,330 too difficult to do because like in this 1315 00:51:34,460 --> 00:51:33,300 lady's case I thought it was curious 1316 00:51:35,690 --> 00:51:34,470 enough that I was willing to try but 1317 00:51:38,810 --> 00:51:35,700 there are other people that I dreamt of 1318 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:38,820 as as having died or as ghosts and I 1319 00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:40,650 just thought it'd be too hard to find 1320 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:42,480 out if it was if it was true or not so I 1321 00:51:46,430 --> 00:51:44,610 never even bothered Bennett for this 1322 00:51:48,020 --> 00:51:46,440 article I thought let's let's see if I 1323 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:48,030 can find out if there's anyone else like 1324 00:51:53,150 --> 00:51:51,210 that so I found every single dream that 1325 00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:53,160 could be construed as death related and 1326 00:51:56,750 --> 00:51:55,200 then I found out all the people who were 1327 00:51:57,830 --> 00:51:56,760 involved in those of course I can do 1328 00:51:59,059 --> 00:51:57,840 this because I've got this searchable 1329 00:52:00,920 --> 00:51:59,069 database now 1330 00:52:02,329 --> 00:52:00,930 and to read all of these dreams to see 1331 00:52:04,519 --> 00:52:02,339 that they really were death related 1332 00:52:06,439 --> 00:52:04,529 because in some cases it was just like 1333 00:52:08,390 --> 00:52:06,449 I'd used the word death or diary one of 1334 00:52:10,759 --> 00:52:08,400 the search terms I was using and it was 1335 00:52:12,259 --> 00:52:10,769 an innocuous context so like in one case 1336 00:52:13,699 --> 00:52:12,269 I had a dream where this chameleon had 1337 00:52:15,019 --> 00:52:13,709 what I described as a death grip on my 1338 00:52:17,150 --> 00:52:15,029 finger so obviously groups like that 1339 00:52:20,709 --> 00:52:17,160 don't mean anything in this context 1340 00:52:23,269 --> 00:52:20,719 anyway let's talk about statistics this 1341 00:52:25,999 --> 00:52:23,279 what you've really broken some ground on 1342 00:52:27,609 --> 00:52:26,009 here is tying these what you call 1343 00:52:31,549 --> 00:52:27,619 spontaneous what other people would call 1344 00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:31,559 anecdotal accounts to statistical 1345 00:52:36,069 --> 00:52:34,319 measures that social scientists are 1346 00:52:39,140 --> 00:52:36,079 really comfortable with and and 1347 00:52:41,599 --> 00:52:39,150 psychologists like dr. Daryl BEM who 1348 00:52:43,609 --> 00:52:41,609 assisted you greatly after you brought 1349 00:52:46,779 --> 00:52:43,619 him in on the process in doing this so 1350 00:52:58,880 --> 00:52:46,789 tell us about that interface of 1351 00:53:05,719 --> 00:52:58,890 statistics and these accounts it was 1352 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:05,729 March of last year and we should back up 1353 00:53:11,029 --> 00:53:07,890 and tell people in case they don't know 1354 00:53:13,370 --> 00:53:11,039 who Daryl BEM is and in the process I 1355 00:53:15,620 --> 00:53:13,380 really want to tell people about this 1356 00:53:17,569 --> 00:53:15,630 process and about this journal the 1357 00:53:19,459 --> 00:53:17,579 journal scientific exploration because 1358 00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:19,469 again we can say we don't have to pay 1359 00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:20,910 any attention to the skeptics but of 1360 00:53:24,529 --> 00:53:22,529 course we do of course we have to pay 1361 00:53:27,049 --> 00:53:24,539 attention to the skeptics any of you 1362 00:53:29,809 --> 00:53:27,059 mentioned the Journal of scientific 1363 00:53:31,579 --> 00:53:29,819 exploration to skeptics he gets all this 1364 00:53:32,900 --> 00:53:31,589 rolling of this eye the rolling of the 1365 00:53:36,019 --> 00:53:32,910 eyes and the shrugging the shoulders 1366 00:53:39,380 --> 00:53:36,029 like oh my gosh you know I wanted you to 1367 00:53:41,299 --> 00:53:39,390 tell people what you went through what 1368 00:53:43,370 --> 00:53:41,309 the process was like what the peer 1369 00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:43,380 review process was like what the 1370 00:53:48,410 --> 00:53:45,630 acceptance process was like what the 1371 00:53:51,019 --> 00:53:48,420 editorial process was like and what the 1372 00:53:55,729 --> 00:53:51,029 standards were like for getting your 1373 00:53:58,009 --> 00:53:55,739 paper in this journal yeah actually also 1374 00:54:03,529 --> 00:53:58,019 every paper submitted was initially 1375 00:54:06,410 --> 00:54:03,539 rejected but they they needed me to 1376 00:54:08,509 --> 00:54:06,420 explain myself a lot better and they I 1377 00:54:10,130 --> 00:54:08,519 think I every case went through a 1378 00:54:11,020 --> 00:54:10,140 minimum of two drafts in the case of 1379 00:54:12,430 --> 00:54:11,030 this article like 1380 00:54:15,730 --> 00:54:12,440 one through about six something like 1381 00:54:17,290 --> 00:54:15,740 that they I felt they were very rigorous 1382 00:54:19,530 --> 00:54:17,300 and actually I think people who roll her 1383 00:54:23,260 --> 00:54:19,540 eyes it this particular journal are 1384 00:54:24,730 --> 00:54:23,270 really ill informed frankly I mean never 1385 00:54:27,130 --> 00:54:24,740 mind the fact that they've gotten Nobel 1386 00:54:30,070 --> 00:54:27,140 laureates who founded it journal my 1387 00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:30,080 auntie very active player active role in 1388 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:34,160 the publication they also have really 1389 00:54:39,460 --> 00:54:36,770 prominent researchers who are publishing 1390 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:39,470 in this journal in fact actually if I 1391 00:54:42,550 --> 00:54:40,970 want to find good articles on these 1392 00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:42,560 kinds of subjects really rigorous 1393 00:54:46,420 --> 00:54:44,240 articles by people who know what they're 1394 00:54:48,220 --> 00:54:46,430 talking about I'm more likely to find 1395 00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:48,230 them here than in almost any other 1396 00:54:53,410 --> 00:54:50,510 location because they are willing to 1397 00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:53,420 publish it but because good researchers 1398 00:54:58,720 --> 00:54:56,000 like to publish in this journal finally 1399 00:55:02,470 --> 00:54:58,730 what happened was I got an email from 1400 00:55:04,810 --> 00:55:02,480 their associate editor I think or their 1401 00:55:06,250 --> 00:55:04,820 editor chief Kathleen Ericsson and she 1402 00:55:07,900 --> 00:55:06,260 said well here's the thing got this 1403 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:07,910 feedback from people who've read your 1404 00:55:12,670 --> 00:55:10,130 papers and pure fun amounts of peer 1405 00:55:14,740 --> 00:55:12,680 reviewers and they liked the subject 1406 00:55:17,140 --> 00:55:14,750 they liked your take on it they really 1407 00:55:19,660 --> 00:55:17,150 need the statistics to be more solid so 1408 00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:19,670 what we'd like to suggest is that you 1409 00:55:24,940 --> 00:55:22,160 work with our associate editor get them 1410 00:55:26,260 --> 00:55:24,950 on this and I have him take a look at it 1411 00:55:29,650 --> 00:55:26,270 and then go from there 1412 00:55:33,310 --> 00:55:29,660 who is who is Daryl BEM and what kind of 1413 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:33,320 tables and questions was he asking okay 1414 00:55:37,330 --> 00:55:35,090 by the way I think you know Daryl more 1415 00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:37,340 about darlin I you but he is a prominent 1416 00:55:42,580 --> 00:55:40,640 researcher primarily well-known for a 1417 00:55:44,380 --> 00:55:42,590 article on precognition that he did a 1418 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:44,390 while back where people were found 1419 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:46,690 subjects were found to anticipate 1420 00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:50,450 responses in a precognition test where 1421 00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:52,990 they were they were going to be shown 1422 00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:55,760 symbols and one of them this is I think 1423 00:55:59,050 --> 00:55:57,170 we got all the attention was part of 1424 00:56:00,760 --> 00:55:59,060 graphic one of those violence one was 1425 00:56:03,490 --> 00:56:00,770 today and you know different kinds of 1426 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:03,500 scenes or images and he found that they 1427 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:05,570 there they had physical reactions based 1428 00:56:10,660 --> 00:56:07,130 on I guess electrodes or something that 1429 00:56:13,180 --> 00:56:10,670 was attached to the body before it was 1430 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:13,190 consistent for certain types of content 1431 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:15,290 so they were able to link the content 1432 00:56:20,890 --> 00:56:17,570 that they were they were getting after 1433 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:20,900 this galvanic response even though the 1434 00:56:23,859 --> 00:56:23,210 the person wasn't even aware of the doer 1435 00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:23,869 they were 1436 00:56:27,549 --> 00:56:26,480 it's visible response to the the images 1437 00:56:30,039 --> 00:56:27,559 that they were going to be shown that 1438 00:56:32,380 --> 00:56:30,049 had been shot yeah right and he made the 1439 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:32,390 rounds on all the talk shows and even 1440 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:33,890 made it to like the mainstream talk 1441 00:56:37,870 --> 00:56:36,650 shows like core bear report and and that 1442 00:56:40,180 --> 00:56:37,880 kind of stuff but what's also 1443 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:40,190 interesting about Daryl BEM is that as a 1444 00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:43,130 social psychologist he was kind of about 1445 00:56:48,009 --> 00:56:45,200 world famous but he was certainly very 1446 00:56:51,549 --> 00:56:48,019 very famous in the field in terms of non 1447 00:56:54,430 --> 00:56:51,559 sai non parapsychology related stuff 1448 00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:54,440 when he published that paper a few years 1449 00:57:01,839 --> 00:56:58,400 ago on this side effect so he's he's a 1450 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:01,849 bigwig in as a social psychologist and 1451 00:57:08,049 --> 00:57:04,490 then he became somewhat of a bigwig in 1452 00:57:10,089 --> 00:57:08,059 parapsychology incise oh yeah so as long 1453 00:57:12,220 --> 00:57:10,099 as you might as well mention also that 1454 00:57:13,839 --> 00:57:12,230 he's a professor emeritus at Cornell 1455 00:57:18,460 --> 00:57:13,849 University which is not a funny thing to 1456 00:57:20,799 --> 00:57:18,470 achieve so Andy tell you what people 1457 00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:20,809 need to go and check out this paper what 1458 00:57:26,349 --> 00:57:24,049 is the the exact future of this paper in 1459 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:26,359 terms of its going to be in the JSE 1460 00:57:30,370 --> 00:57:28,970 which people can't get or is it going to 1461 00:57:31,479 --> 00:57:30,380 be where is it going to be published 1462 00:57:33,609 --> 00:57:31,489 where people can be able to read this 1463 00:57:34,989 --> 00:57:33,619 and when is it going to be out it's 1464 00:57:37,479 --> 00:57:34,999 gonna be an Adreno scientific 1465 00:57:39,039 --> 00:57:37,489 exploration june issue which should be 1466 00:57:42,759 --> 00:57:39,049 out in about two weeks from the big 1467 00:57:45,609 --> 00:57:42,769 recording this and the way they do it at 1468 00:57:46,569 --> 00:57:45,619 the JSC subscriber you have access to it 1469 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:46,579 immediately and if you're not a 1470 00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:47,210 subscriber 1471 00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:48,559 they make all of their articles 1472 00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:50,480 available for free on the internet 1473 00:57:56,529 --> 00:57:54,049 after a year after it was published okay 1474 00:57:58,029 --> 00:57:56,539 and I don't know what I haven't read the 1475 00:58:00,370 --> 00:57:58,039 fine print of my agreement with them so 1476 00:58:02,259 --> 00:58:00,380 I don't know if I'm allowed to like post 1477 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:02,269 the paper to ResearchGate or something 1478 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:04,970 so other people can download it I have 1479 00:58:08,170 --> 00:58:06,410 to ask them about that I presume that 1480 00:58:10,089 --> 00:58:08,180 they want subscribers so they'd rather I 1481 00:58:11,859 --> 00:58:10,099 not do that until your has passed so I 1482 00:58:14,710 --> 00:58:11,869 have to check but it will be available 1483 00:58:16,509 --> 00:58:14,720 that way and I will say that getting a 1484 00:58:19,479 --> 00:58:16,519 subscription to Journal of scientific 1485 00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:19,489 exploration is not expensive and it's 1486 00:58:23,529 --> 00:58:22,160 kind of good Journal actually so you get 1487 00:58:25,210 --> 00:58:23,539 lots of interesting articles in there 1488 00:58:27,279 --> 00:58:25,220 and they actually don't think it's a bad 1489 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:27,289 way to support the you know 1490 00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:29,450 parapsychology research in general but 1491 00:58:33,759 --> 00:58:31,249 one thing also I want to say about this 1492 00:58:36,249 --> 00:58:33,769 that I think is probably the most 1493 00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:36,259 important takeaway for me is that if it 1494 00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:39,890 took me 25 years a really serious effort 1495 00:58:44,170 --> 00:58:42,079 that you know like Stan Lee Ritenour has 1496 00:58:46,839 --> 00:58:44,180 only seen the like of twice in his 1497 00:58:49,390 --> 00:58:46,849 entire life you're not like leading to 1498 00:58:52,299 --> 00:58:49,400 get articles like this very often from 1499 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:52,309 anybody and anyone any skeptic who's 1500 00:58:57,339 --> 00:58:53,890 going to pull out the file for effect 1501 00:58:59,890 --> 00:58:57,349 cannot possibly have any data to base 1502 00:59:01,900 --> 00:58:59,900 that argument on in this context anyway 1503 00:59:05,799 --> 00:59:01,910 when it comes to death creams there is 1504 00:59:07,359 --> 00:59:05,809 no way anyone in the entire world has 1505 00:59:11,319 --> 00:59:07,369 more data than I do on this exact 1506 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:11,329 subject it's just impossible we'll all 1507 00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:14,210 make sure that we look for these papers 1508 00:59:18,519 --> 00:59:16,089 that are coming out but also for the 1509 00:59:20,559 --> 00:59:18,529 sequel the follow-on to your book 1510 00:59:23,559 --> 00:59:20,569 dreamer which folks can find on 1511 00:59:25,930 --> 00:59:23,569 amazon.com or through your website which 1512 00:59:28,539 --> 00:59:25,940 will have linked up in the show notes 1513 00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:28,549 Andy it's been a long conversation but 1514 00:59:32,380 --> 00:59:30,319 we could probably go on I really only 1515 00:59:34,599 --> 00:59:32,390 asked about half the questions I really 1516 00:59:37,479 --> 00:59:34,609 wanted to ask but such a fascinating 1517 00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,489 topic we'll have to do it again when one 1518 00:59:41,799 --> 00:59:39,920 of these other papers come out it's been 1519 00:59:46,749 --> 00:59:41,809 great having on skeptic oh thanks so 1520 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:48,950 thanks again to Andi for joining me 1521 00:59:54,170 --> 00:59:51,450 today on skeptic oh one question to tee 1522 00:59:57,140 --> 00:59:54,180 up from this interview that is have you 1523 01:00:00,009 --> 00:59:57,150 ever had any precognitive dreams in 1524 01:00:03,229 --> 01:00:00,019 particular have you ever had any dreams 1525 01:00:05,690 --> 01:00:03,239 related to someone's death I thought as 1526 01:00:09,019 --> 01:00:05,700 a follow-on to this conversation we 1527 01:00:11,660 --> 01:00:09,029 might talk about your amazing dreams 1528 01:00:13,489 --> 01:00:11,670 precognitive dreams death-related dreams 1529 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:13,499 whatever I'd love to hear from you about 1530 01:00:18,670 --> 01:00:15,410 that of course you can drop me an email 1531 01:00:21,049 --> 01:00:18,680 pop over the forum connect with me there 1532 01:00:22,700 --> 01:00:21,059 connect with me on Facebook I'm really 1533 01:00:24,739 --> 01:00:22,710 gonna try and reach out at Facebook and 1534 01:00:27,589 --> 01:00:24,749 Twitter more and more in the future so 1535 01:00:29,150 --> 01:00:27,599 if you can connect with me there as well 1536 01:00:30,890 --> 01:00:29,160 of course the way to get to the 1537 01:00:36,170 --> 01:00:30,900 skeptical shows through this skeptical 1538 01:00:39,559 --> 01:00:36,180 website at ske P tik Oh calm and you can 1539 01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:39,569 download all these shows all 281 of them 1540 01:00:43,039 --> 01:00:41,609 or whatever the number is right there on 1541 01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:43,049 the website for free there's no 1542 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:45,210 obligation we don't ask for any money 1543 01:00:51,019 --> 01:00:47,690 there's no donations or no advertising 1544 01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:51,029 just a little bit of good old-fashioned 1545 01:00:55,549 --> 01:00:53,609 internet sharing so take advantage of it 1546 01:00:58,459 --> 01:00:55,559 if you liked it and please tell other 1547 01:01:00,529 --> 01:00:58,469 people like I like sharing and I love 1548 01:01:03,529 --> 01:01:00,539 when you share what I'm sharing with you 1549 01:01:06,499 --> 01:01:03,539 with others it's a great joy of mine so 1550 01:01:08,690 --> 01:01:06,509 please do it in whatever way you can 1551 01:01:10,670 --> 01:01:08,700 well that's about it I have some good 1552 01:01:12,019 --> 01:01:10,680 shows coming up man I'm looking forward 1553 01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:12,029 to this next one I won't tell you too 1554 01:01:18,109 --> 01:01:14,640 much about it but I think you'll like it 1555 01:01:20,359 --> 01:01:18,119 it's a classic skeptic Oh episode by the 1556 01:01:22,999 --> 01:01:20,369 way I'm also revamping the website a 1557 01:01:25,249 --> 01:01:23,009 little bit kind of adding some more 1558 01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:25,259 things but all that will come about in 1559 01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:27,119 time and you'll see it tell me if you 1560 01:01:31,609 --> 01:01:29,130 like it and we'll see if we can generate 1561 01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:31,619 some more interest in what we're doing 1562 01:01:37,309 --> 01:01:34,049 over here on skeptic oh so check that 1563 01:01:39,469 --> 01:01:37,319 out in the coming days or or by the next 1564 01:01:41,209 --> 01:01:39,479 podcast I'll have more information for